A Children's Aid Society CASE IN WHICH A TRIAL WAS IN “Q” BUT CAS WANTED TO CLOSE CASE NOTE : There was never a FINDING to prove it is was a child protection matter
In Court about 20 minutes
Judge (J) Ms__________, you have 2 kids with you. A teenage son and a daughter ? A millionaire's dream. Did you know that? The only issue is supervision, is that right ? There is a supervision order with the society, is that correct ?
MOM A home visit, a visitation once a month
J When was the last time in court ?– Assignment in April and another in August, here we are again today and this was justice _______ right?
Office of Children Lawyer (OCL) Motion in March in respect to the son who turned 15. (NOTE: CAS took Family to court becasue son could see the Fatehr alone when he turned 15 and CAS didn't want that but Judge did NOT grant CAS's request for more supervision. He said there was no need because CAS had not proven there was any finding at all or if kids were even at Risk)
J CAS position ?
CAS we just received letter from Psychiatrist where family has a history and there was a list of concerns the Society wanted addressed and they may be addressed by this letter so we will read the letter and consult with the Branch
J We will adjourn this
OCL My position is that I have to meet with my client and Ms________has advised that they don't want to meet with me but I can't have a position w/out meeting w/ them
NOTE : OCL had 2 yrs to build a relationship and was given 3 consents to visit school – all lapsed and she never called the School at all much less went to visit : She wanted to meet in school again and have a consent which granted irrevocable information granting too much info and not necessary. OCL has NO jurisdiction in schools anyway
MOM Your Honor, Judge________ has said there is no finding, that is why he ordered a trial and the position of my children is that they don't want representation of the OCL so I respected that. So we went to Mediation
J : We have the word of Justice __________ and the Letter from the Psychiatrist so I gather the concern is Mental Health issues?
CAS No , there is issue to respect to charges re: the Father
MOM This has nothing to do with my children
OCL There are sexual Assault allegations and it's going to trial, I believe in March is the understanding
(NOTE: Trial in March No one told parent this at all. )
J What is the psychiatric Letter for?
CAS With respect to the children that are in the home and whether or not the father poses a risk to those children and their uCAS Worker : nderstanding of healthy sexual boundaries in the home – The father is not in the home at this time your honor
J Does the supervision order end when the father comes home?
MOM There is no finding of Risk so the issue is not whether he is in the home or not , the issue is are the children safe or are they at risk (now, as criminal court conditions apply)
J The issue is not quite that simple Ms _________, the issue is : there is an interim supervision order that keeps him out of the house, am I understanding that correctly ?
MOM Yes and bail conditions
OCL as well as bail conditions
J so as soon as the trial happens in March and the bail conditions may well be gone ..there may well be no jail sentence
MOM The Criminal court has set the bail conditions which Judge__________ is satisfied with and they will continue
J until the trial
MOM Yes and they may continue after
J There won't be Bail conditions. If he is found guilty he could be charged and if he is not guilty then there will be no conditions
MOM Yes . CAS can't make a determination based on my future decision or the accused decision
J The CAS and the Court , is required to, to some extent are to Crystal Ball gaze . That's part of our job
MOM Right
J Part of our job, we have to look at the situation , we have to say, before we terminate the supervision, if there are no conditions from the criminal court will the man return to the Home? If your answer to that is yes,
MOM I can not answer that. That is between his Lawyer and him and I can't speak to the court on this and represent my husband here and bring that out because it is not a CAS matter
J Once the criminal charges are dealt with and there are if there are no conditions in place , would you, my only thought concerning , would you agree to letting him back into the House?
MOM I would have to discuss that with my worker and anyone who is representing me which is myself now but also my husbands lawyer to determine what is best and what concerns the CAS would have about that and I would consider looking at what the concerns would be , certainly but I can not answer that question
J we will adjourn this until after the trial
MOM What I did want to request was , though we were having Mediation in this matter to deal with the issues , the concerns and the Supervisor did say they were willing to close but I would like a speedy trial so it is not dragging on and for the children it is not hanging over their head – that is the issue (She ignored question re: Moms right to trial)
J There is a criminal trial. Do you want this back in front of Justice ____________ with this letter, after the criminal trial, in April?
CAS Worker : Yes I think so
CAS ok April 12 10 am your honor ?
J yes
Outside Court
MOM Do we put the Letter before Judge ________?
CAS Now we have the Letter and maybe that Letter will make progress in the case
CAS Worker : That letter will be filed as evidence supporting the decision to close the file
OCL I am letting you know, it is unlikely that I will consent to a closure if I can't meet with the children
MOM I will deal with you later because we have a conflict. My conflict is not as much with CAS but with you because you are opposing the closure
OCL I did not say anything like that I have to meet with my clients to take a position
MOM My conflict is that they don't want to see you
OCL How does that solve things ?
MOM It could solve things We can deal with that
OCL I won't be able to close if she won't agree to meet
CAS Worker : Yes I have to have a face to face before we close
MOM Right and that is fine. We can talk about that . You have to bring what the children's wishes really are and this wasn't presented , there was the little bit of conflict . We can talk about that . My kids don't want to see you
CAS (Lawyer) Mrs______________we can't separate it - your kids seeing CAS and OCL
MOM Yes I understand . It is a conflict but not anything I am doing wrong
CAS No No nothing wrong , we just have to be on the same page at the same time
MOM Yes I don't mind . I feel there has been some break down and this had to do with the change of workers and other issues that were not presented properly and also breeches and false information that mucked things up. It's unfortunate
CAS Worker : Your children trust you. If you said to them, “OCL has to meet you , she needs to hear from your mouth what you want” and even with the Letter in place and CAS saying we want to close the file, they can't support that until OCL sees them so if you can use your influence to say, kids, you need to speak to OCL
OCL We have to know directly what their thoughts are
MOM They have already told OCL , and they have written you letters as well that they want the case closed
OCL I haven't heard anything from the kids since April and I wouldn't accept a Letter from them . That is not how we do our process
MOM That is not how I do it . We have a conflict and I will try to deal with it with the children but I also have to respect the children and I could get the Provincial Advocate.
(NOTE CAS seemed favourable to this but said it would stall things )
MOM That is another thing choice but they have to call. I can't for them. I am only trying to respect them as well . If they are uncomfortable, I am uncomfortable. That is the tension. I want them to be comfortable and if it means getting a Provincial Advocate , then so be it
CAS We are so close (to closing. CAS didn't want a trial. They wanted to close case)
MOM To me it's a no brainer. The Judge says there is no finding
OCL He didn't say there is no finding. He said there hasn't been a finding. There hasn't been a trial
MOM That is the position (NOTE Judge said there is no finding , that is why he ordered a trial because CAS has not been able to convince him there was a finding at all to give him reason to grant CAS more supervision. That is WHY he ordered a trial)
OCL That is what it is
MOM That is fine. But I know the case more than you and I don't want to argue about it. There is a difference between what I know and what you know and what original CAS office has already set and I do not agree with it because I can not support false allegations so in this sense, I have to be firm because this is my family. It is not simple, cut and dry. This is my family so I have to say, No , you are wrong here, or you are wrong there and so on , not to belittle you. I don't mean to be that way
OCL But I haven't said anything to what you are referring to. I have to meet with my client
MOM Right, but when they did tell you what they wanted, you did not bring that before the court to Judge ___________ you only made remarks about us . That was all
OCL I don't recall specifically
MOM Well I have it in the notes I wrote it down
OCL We haven't been in court since March
MOM Doesn't matter . You had the chance before Judge _________ to say what the children did tell you but you didn't tell him. That is the issue. I am disappointed that you did not bring forth what they said
CAS This is a new opportunity to do that
MOM yes I can encourage that. I am sorry we had that between us . It is also up to me to tell the kids, you have to tell them what you want
CAS In any event , the Judge would want to know what is updated because so much time has past
MOM I am working with 2 young teens. I can't tell them what to do . I am not allowed to manipulate them but I can say it is in your best interest to be clear to them about what they want and to not be manipulated. It is fair for me to advocate. It is just a process and I feel they haven't had that and it's been a long haul. They have been whacked by other workers, mostly by Original CAS before we moved
CAS Worker : We want to move towards closure
OCL If you want to have a meeting with me, I have no problem with this. We can meet at my office if you want , at your house , at the school, whatever but I am letting you know that I have to take a certain position depending on what the Society wants to do, I need to meet with my clients. Just so you know, I represent mainly 13, 15 16, 17, 18 yr olds and generally there isn't an issue meeting with them so if someone doesn't want to meet with me , they can tell me themselves. They are very nice kids, they re not rude at all so I don't have a problem with that but I can't take it by a letter. It has to be a face to face meeting. That is the way it works